tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post3280085850963335703..comments2023-10-24T11:53:12.980-04:00Comments on Meadowsweet & Myrrh: Memorial Day, Motherland and Blood SacrificeAlihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01738190874181111086noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-86361905682239152602010-06-06T19:57:08.154-04:002010-06-06T19:57:08.154-04:00Madrigal,
Today your comment was a balm for my ow...Madrigal,<br /><br />Today your comment was a balm for my own heart, so thank you for that. Too often I know I allow myself to get dragged into angry arguments about these issues (this afternoon being one of those occasions, on another blog) — I'm so grateful that the dialogue in this blog has remained as open and contemplative as it has, and for that I know I have my readers to thank as much as anything I've done. :) So thank you, and all those other folks out there who might not be commenting but are reading along, and pondering, and struggling, and persevering nonetheless. :)Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738190874181111086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-28006349968718169962010-06-06T18:20:21.544-04:002010-06-06T18:20:21.544-04:00Ali - thank you for your posts. I had similar mis...Ali - thank you for your posts. I had similar misgivings and ruminations about this Memorial Day holiday. It was heartening to see those issues echoed in your pages, and examined and confronted by you, and by those who don't quite understand. The dialog is important but it does make me uncomfortable (and is telling) that there is no room for some to honor a different view. I honor you for the courage to speak your heart, and for doing so with such balance and compassion. It feels very lonely out here some times, and your posts are a balm for my heart. Blessings to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-79529916788615946182010-06-03T09:26:46.647-04:002010-06-03T09:26:46.647-04:00Sorry to chime in, I always tell myself I shouldn&...Sorry to chime in, I always tell myself I shouldn't, but I'm absolutely amazed to see so many self-described "Pagans" defending the rights of the state and the willing executioners of that state. I am in agreement on one thing: we should start to become much more aware of how we reached the point we have, becoming more aware of our "history." But by no means does that call for "honoring" that history, especially in the case of the US, a country with perhaps the worst record of atrocities, known and unknown, in the modern world. As Nietzsche once pointed out, "If a temple is to be erected, a temple must be destroyed - that is the law." And he goes on to point out that in order to form a "memory," we must pay for that memory with incredible amounts of blood and torture and destruction. Notice how I didn't use the word violence as well, particularly because I think that word is bastardized to no end these days. Now, somewhere in your lives, most of you have decided to let the "goodness" of "honoring" that "blood sacrifice" go unchecked. But why? Why should we "honor" or respect anyone's choice or action that involves forming and shaping another person or group of people into what they want them to be while denying those folks the right to choose for themselves? Soldiers, for the most part (with socio-political considerations aside), are willing participants in the slaughter and oppression of people within and especially those outside the system of government in power. They are literally the strong force that keeps the few in power that control and manipulate the many, allowing them to do whatever they want really. And while we shouldn't go so far as to demonize the "soldiers," we must by no means deny them the responsibility of accepting the consequences of their choice to be a "soldier." While it is quite possible to have a "good" "soldier," meaning a good person who is a "soldier," these people must still be held accountable for making a choice to support a system that continuously abuses power-over and is corrupt almost all the way through. Because whether or not those "good" "soldiers" participate in "bad" actions directly, the majority of the actions in the military all lead to the overwhelming abuse of another group of people somewhere in the world. <br /><br />So yes, while the "price" of many things, particularly the state of our world as it is now, was paid for in blood, keep in mind that it was not only OUR "soldier's" who paid with that blood....add to it the countless numbers of children, men, and women who forcibly removed from this world because of a few other people's desire to control a piece of land, or gain access to a little bit more "wealth." And what about the "soldier" on the other side of the fence, staring back over at your cherished idea of a "soldier." What of him? Shouldn't he be "honored" too? Just think, without that "soldier" your "soldier" wouldn't have even had the chance to be "heroic." So, if a person really wants to die for anything, let alone a "country," then go ahead, be my guest. Don't expect me or anyone else, though, to respect that choice (just as I have no respect for martyr's who die for their chosen God-god-goddess of the week). I especially don't respect anyone who chooses to take shit loads of people out with them along their way to their own death. And in no way am I naive, yes naive, enough to believe that their choices to do whatever provides me with my "right to freedom" or my "right to be." While their choices and actions may have provided a certain shape and stink to this world that I cannot get away from, that does not mean anything in the way of freedom or my right to be.Mr. Free Radicalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-39728474835186818682010-06-02T20:02:04.974-04:002010-06-02T20:02:04.974-04:00Anonymous, I'm sorry you won't be coming a...Anonymous, I'm sorry you won't be coming around anymore - I wouldn't say we're "deep" around here, but in my experience reading things I disagree with has always helped me "deepen" my own opinions, and I'm happy to do the same for you. :)<br /><br />As far as our freedoms - though they downplay it in high school history class, most of our "freedoms" that folks claim were secured by war actually came about through protests and resistance by civilians within our own country. The Women's and Civil Rights movement, during which many men and women were killed as they protested sometimes quite peacefully (though sometimes not), are only the most recent examples. Before that, you had Labor and Workers Unions organizing and fighting to secure the right to overtime pay, child labor laws, etc. Here in Pittsburgh, a famous show-down occurred right on the river, where several business owners called in the national guard and ended up killing about thirty (if I recall correctly) civilian protesters.<br /><br />The freedoms we enjoy in this country were fought for and secured by people <i>in this country</i>, and I'm with Ani DiFranco when she says, "I love my country, by which I mean I am indebted, joyfully, to all the people throughout its history who have <i>fought the government</i> to make right." Fighting the oppressions of an uncaring and manipulative government was the ideal and the mythology this country was founded on, and it is those sacrifices, which people continue to make even to this day, that I honor.Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738190874181111086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-90549266850167172292010-06-02T15:32:21.194-04:002010-06-02T15:32:21.194-04:00Feel free to delete that. I'm not here to cau...Feel free to delete that. I'm not here to cause an argument. I won't be coming 'round anymore, but it just hit me that there's a lot of things that we enjoy in this country, and it's because of our history that we have those things. That history involves war. People gave their lives to give us religious freedom, and the abolition of slavery. We should be thankful that those things happened and grateful to those that gave their lives.<br /><br />I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I ain't as deep as you guys, heh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-61560833178797901122010-06-02T15:17:52.137-04:002010-06-02T15:17:52.137-04:00Meh. You celebrate the freedoms given you by war....Meh. You celebrate the freedoms given you by war. Were it not for those things, you would not have your grassy meadows or your ability to go here and there as you please.<br /><br />Memorial Day and Independence Day should be the highlight of any Pagan's yearly calendar, as you have the freedom do practice and do what and as you wish; the price was paid with blood, whether you like it or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-7623210398834730252010-06-02T14:54:49.106-04:002010-06-02T14:54:49.106-04:00...
Which brings me to the crux of my disagreeme......<br /><br /><br />Which brings me to the crux of my disagreement with your view of Memorial Day, I think: does a choice made in the hope of being honorable render that choice (and its subsequent actions) truly honorable? Can we assume that someone's good intentions are sufficient to make their choice a "good" one? This is the problem with making, as you put it, a "full stop." I do not see how we can discuss issues of honor and memory if we do not place them in a context which gives such notions meaning. It may be true that these soldiers chose to join up because they believed it was honorable and noble; if they believed this because <i>we continue to tell them this is so</i>, haven't we merely created a vacuum of meaningless and redundant rhetoric? What is it, other than our assurances, that make this choice an honorable one? Since at least the Vietnam War, there has been no pretense that our military and armed forces are anything but a global police presence enforcing our economic and political interests across the world. While people on both the "left" and the "right" continue to argue about the military as a tool, quibbling over how and when it should be applied to best effect, there are those of us who do not take either side and believe, instead, that an institution of state-sponsored, organized, large-scale violence cannot ever be honorable, nor put to "good" use.<br /><br />Still, your point is one that has given me pause. It is important, I believe, to spend time contemplating and honoring these soldiers' ability to make choices, and to acknowledge the good intentions behind that choice. Such soldiers are not mere pawns, despite how they are treated and portrayed. But with this focus, I think it is equally important that we not glorify choice alone but that, with it, we acknowledge the personal responsibility (and response-ability) that these soldiers also had, and that we too have. And I believe part of that responsibility is to resist the continued glorification of the role of soldier as one of inherent nobility, and to remind others, loudly if necessary (and through grief, if sometimes appropriate), that our young people should not <i>have</i> to go off to kill and be killed in order to feel valued and honored in our society.Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738190874181111086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-88504056350007869902010-06-02T14:54:21.290-04:002010-06-02T14:54:21.290-04:00Ian, Thank you very much for your comment. Though ...Ian, Thank you very much for your comment. Though there are some things that I disagree with in what you say, what you have written is clearly thoughtful and articulate, and it's given me much to contemplate.<br /><br />It is, I admit, hard for me to think of the modern soldier as anything more than a duped "sacrificial victim," keeping in mind of course that all sacrificial victims have always been deeply and complexly human in their own right. The mechanizations of power and propaganda in this country are strong. The loudest voices urging a "career" in the armed forces — targeted primarily, as is clear from the nature of their television commercials and recruiting websites, at lower and working class young people with few other education and career options — often place disproportionate emphasis on how it will benefit one's job prospects and provide education and practical skills training, how it elevates the soldier to the role of world-hero or even savior (the U.S. Navy's current slogan is "A Global Force for Good," taking for granted the question of whether or not our military should even aspire to be a "global force" and what implications such an aspiration might have), and most tellingly, how becoming a service member has become increasingly "safe," and even kind of fun, due to our modern technologies and impressive weaponry and machinery, some of which can even take the place of the soldier himself on the front lines. Much of this strikes me as disturbingly similar to the promises of afterlife glory and this-world praise reflected in, for instance, the human sacrifice culture of the ancient Aztecs. And the rate at which our soldiers are dying (far outstripped by the pace at which they are becoming increasingly efficient at killing) is reminiscent of the collapsing Aztec empire, which sacrificed hundreds, even thousands of victims, in attempts to appease the gods and slow the inevitable.<br /><br />...Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738190874181111086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-40246028785596873732010-06-02T13:58:23.385-04:002010-06-02T13:58:23.385-04:00One of the things I like to keep in mind is that M...One of the things I like to keep in mind is that Memorial Day is about honoring the dead who died in military service to their country. Second, following upon that, it is an affirmation of the choice to serve in the military and being willing to die for your country. Full stop.<br /><br />Regardless of the nature of the war in which a soldier died, Memorial Day upholds the virtue in choosing to serve one's country in this manner. <br /><br />Like any virtue, the soldier's can be abused--but the virtue remains. The holiday should be focused firmly on the virtue, not its misuses.<br /><br />Too much politicizing, left or right, of that on Memorial Day gets in the way. <br /><br />It's good, for one day, to get as clear a sense of the goodness of the soldier's choice as possible, so that the next day, and the next, one's attitude toward military policy is sharpened by a keen sense of its value.<br /><br />That's hardly a blanket endorsement of military action--a keener sense of its value is accompanied by a keener sense of how that value can be squandered and diminished by poor or excessive use of it. <br /><br />Too often, neither the right nor the left appreciates that value, using the image of the dead soldier to score points.<br /><br />And, yes, the U.S. could definitely afford to think about other expressions of civic virtue--it would be nice, for example, to see some conscious acknowledgment of the role of the diplomat, the statesman, in securing the safety of the nation. <br /><br />The best and most enduring treaties, after all, are not secured at gunpoint, even when the danger of warfare provides a spur to their adoption.<br /><br />Similarly, as you say, Ali, the freedom to endorse pacifism doesn't depend exclusively on soldiers, but on a whole network of people who are living within the country. <br /><br />It depends on judges, police officers, neighbors, lawyers, legislators, and friends, each with their own forms of civic virtue which need to be supported and sustained .<br /><br />Still, why not give the dead soldiers their day, honor the purest aspect of their choice? Even when it isn't a choice you always endorse--especially when it's not a choice you easily endorse. Because then it takes you out of your own presuppositions* and toward an appreciation of the humanity of the decision to be a soldier.<br /><br />*by this, especially, I mean your portrayal of the soldier as exploited sacrificial victim and the negation of celebration with tear-filled grief (yes, we need to grieve, but that often entails the celebration of their lives, including their military service).Iannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-61748440008090754392010-06-01T18:40:26.064-04:002010-06-01T18:40:26.064-04:00The ability to ponder and contemplate our conditio...The ability to ponder and contemplate our condition as human animals is inherent, and not something that can be taken away or won by force. We have evidence of contemplation prevailing in every single culture that has ever existed, regardless of government or cultural pressure. Indeed, some of the most powerful writings, philosophies and poetry have come from people while they were imprisoned, oppressed or otherwise robbed of government privilege and liberty.<br /><br />Our government <i>knows</i> this, which is why it has long since moved past overt oppression of its own citizens; while you cannot stop people from thinking through force, you can very well keep them from openly challenging you when you buy them off, make them comfortable and then insist it is their complicity which has secured that comfort and only their silence which can buy a few more years of luxury. The philosopher Hobbes wrote about this — the use of fear and psychological manipulation rather than physical force in order to control a population — and it is his philosophy that was very deliberately incorporated quite early on into the workings of our own government, along with thinkers like Locke.<br /><br />Struggle and death are a part of daily life, and it is our duty to honor these things. But we cannot honor them with escalating bloodshed and violence, especially not violence that is directed against the unseen Other. Once a year we claim to honor our fallen soldiers, and yet we do not even have the decency to witness their deaths, we do not even have access to images of their coffins returning home from these foreign wars. Each Memorial Day, the reality of their deaths is glossed over, instead taking the beautiful form of their clean, pale gravestones covered in garlands of flowers. This is not honor — this is little more than a comforting lie.<br /><br />I think our world would be better off if, instead of paying lip-service to honor, we embodied it in our every day lives. If we faced the risk of death and the struggle against tyranny here at home, instead of projecting all evil onto others "over there" and then sending someone else off to die in aggressive foreign wars on our behalf.Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738190874181111086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883567827950405204.post-48723164070078278762010-06-01T18:12:16.564-04:002010-06-01T18:12:16.564-04:00Like it or not, believe in it or not, war and some...Like it or not, believe in it or not, war and sometimes violence is part of daily life. Indeed I think there is something to be learned from the struggle of life. Violence, and the willingness to inflict harm in the defense of yourself, your loved ones and the ideals you care about are just part of life. <br /><br />Memorial day is about remembering those that have died for their country so that you have a free country to philosophize about things like pacifiism and choose your own religion. <br /><br />Without soldiers to defend our freedoms you likely would be pondering a very different subject like what you do and don't like about your state-selected religion or your state-selected job. <br /><br />Realize the irony that it's the very sacrifices you're not quite sure how to honor that provide you the opportunity to ponder said irony.James S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00693176964884158378noreply@blogger.com